Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I can
come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet or
when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete. an
aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about it. I
know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.

Part 25 is for transport category aircraft; Part 23 is for folks who fly
little airplanes. AFAIK there is no minimum gradient for Part 23 aircraft,
but you are wise to consider gradient rather than climb rate when planning.
In many cases, it is smarter to do a circling climb over the departure
airport until high enough to clear any terrain that might pose a problem.

Bob Gardner

"Sparse" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I can
> come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
> concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet or
> when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete. an
> aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
> heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about it. I
> know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.
>

It's a Gardner time-honored tradition...answer first, then research. 23.65
is the appropriate reg, and there are prescribed climb gradients for
airplanes with one, two, three, or four engines. As Damon Runyan wrote, you
could look it up.

Bob

"Sparse" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I can
> come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
> concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet or
> when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete. an
> aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
> heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about it. I
> know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.
>

Up yours
Bob Gardner wrote:
> It's a Gardner time-honored tradition...answer first, then research.
23.65
> is the appropriate reg, and there are prescribed climb gradients for
> airplanes with one, two, three, or four engines. As Damon Runyan
wrote, you
> could look it up.
>
> Bob
>
> "Sparse" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I
can
> > come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
> > concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet
or
> > when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete.
an
> > aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
> > heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about
it. I
> > know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.
> >

Sparse wrote:
> Up yours

Sparse,

I believe that Bob was responding to his own previous post and not to you.

Toño

Sparse wrote:

> Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I can
> come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
> concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet or
> when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete. an
> aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
> heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about it. I
> know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.

The Part 25 transport category climb gradients are neither VFR or IFR; they
are a minimum performance requirement for all operations. IFR takeoff
minimums, obstacle departure procedures, or SIDs will often require IFR
climb gradients in excess of the Part 25 minimums. 200 feet per mile
(3.3%) is the minimum IFR climb gradient for departures when a gradient is
not specified.

Airway en route climb gradients are less than 3.3% and are split into three
values, depending upon altitude. The only reference to these gradients is
in the TERPs section pertaining to airway design.

Toño wrote:
> Sparse wrote:
>
>> Up yours
>
>
> Sparse,
>
> I believe that Bob was responding to his own previous post and not to you.
>
> Toño
>

Not that it matters, he COULD have looked it up himself.

Matt

Whoa....

I think you misunderstood.

I think Mr Gardner was actually being a bit self-deprecating here.


On 2 Apr 2005 20:53:20 -0800, "Sparse" > wrote:

>Up yours
>Bob Gardner wrote:
>> It's a Gardner time-honored tradition...answer first, then research.
>23.65
>> is the appropriate reg, and there are prescribed climb gradients for
>> airplanes with one, two, three, or four engines. As Damon Runyan
>wrote, you
>> could look it up.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> "Sparse" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I
>can
>> > come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
>> > concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet
>or
>> > when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete.
>an
>> > aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
>> > heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about
>it. I
>> > know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.
>> >

A little testy today, are we? Forget to take your meds?
Forgive my assumption that because you referred to Part 25 you also had
access to Part 23. Herewith the relevant sections:

"§ 23.63 Climb: general.
(a) Compliance with the requirements of §§ 23.65, 23.66, 23.67, 23.69, and
23.77 must be shown -
(1) Out of ground effect; and
(2) At speeds that are not less than those at which compliance with the
powerplant cooling requirements of §§ 23.1041 to 23.1047 has been
demonstrated; and
(3) Unless otherwise specified, with one engine inoperative, at a bank angle
not exceeding 5 degrees.
(b) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating engine powered
airplanes of 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight, compliance must be shown
with § 23.65(a), § 23.67(a), where appropriate, and § 23.77(a) at maximum
takeoff or landing weight, as appropriate, in a standard atmosphere.
(c) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating engine powered
airplanes of more than 6,000 pounds maximum weight, and turbine engine
powered airplanes in the normal, utility, and acrobatic category, compliance
must be shown at weights as a function of airport altitude and ambient
temperature, within the operational limits established for takeoff and
landing, respectively, with -
(1) Sections 23.65(b) and 23.67(b) (1) and (2), where appropriate, for
takeoff, and
(2) Section 23.67(b)(2), where appropriate, and § 23.77(b), for landing.
(d) For commuter category airplanes, compliance must be shown at weights as
a function of airport altitude and ambient temperature within the
operational limits established for takeoff and landing, respectively, with -
(1) Sections 23.67(c)(1), 23.67(c)(2), and 23.67(c)(3) for takeoff; and
(2) Sections 23.67(c)(3), 23.67(c)(4), and 23.77(c) for landing.

[Amdt. 23-50, 61 FR 5186, Feb. 9, 1996]
§ 23.65 Climb: All engines operating.
(a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating engine
powered airplane of 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must have a steady
climb gradient at sea level of at least 8.3 percent for landplanes or 6.7
percent for seaplanes and amphibians with -
(1) Not more than maximum continuous power on each engine;
(2) The landing gear retracted;
(3) The wing flaps in the takeoff position(s); and
(4) A climb speed not less than the greater of 1.1 VMC and 1.2 VS1 for
multiengine airplanes and not less than 1.2 VS1 for single engine airplanes.
(b) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating engine
powered airplane of more than 6,000 pounds maximum weight and turbine engine
powered airplanes in the normal, utility, and acrobatic category must have a
steady gradient of climb after takeoff of at least 4 percent with
(1) Take off power on each engine;
(2) The landing gear extended, except that if the landing gear can be
retracted in not more than seven seconds, the test may be conducted with the
gear retracted;
(3) The wing flaps in the takeoff position(s); and
(4) A climb speed as specified in § 23.65(a)(4)."

As noted by others, VFR/IFR does not enter into the discussion.

Bob Gardner

"Sparse" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Up yours
> Bob Gardner wrote:
>> It's a Gardner time-honored tradition...answer first, then research.
> 23.65
>> is the appropriate reg, and there are prescribed climb gradients for
>> airplanes with one, two, three, or four engines. As Damon Runyan
> wrote, you
>> could look it up.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> "Sparse" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I
> can
>> > come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
>> > concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet
> or
>> > when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete.
> an
>> > aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
>> > heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about
> it. I
>> > know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.
>> >
>

Good point about TERPS, although it is directed to procedures designers, not
pilots. Of course, Parts 23 and 25 are directed to manufacturers, not
pilots, and contain nothing that pilots must adhere to. Good guidance,
though, in all three cases.

Bob

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Sparse wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of a VFR climb gradient. The only possible thing I can
>> come up with is what Part 25 says an aircraft must be able to meet
>> concerning the takeoff path. From the start of takeoff to 1500 feet or
>> when transition from takeoff to enroute configuration is complete. an
>> aircraft must be able to climb at least at a 1.2% gradeitn. I ahev
>> heard of a gradeint of 1.6% for VFR but I acn find nothing about it. I
>> know the IFR gradient is 3.3%.
>
> The Part 25 transport category climb gradients are neither VFR or IFR;
> they
> are a minimum performance requirement for all operations. IFR takeoff
> minimums, obstacle departure procedures, or SIDs will often require IFR
> climb gradients in excess of the Part 25 minimums. 200 feet per mile
> (3.3%) is the minimum IFR climb gradient for departures when a gradient is
> not specified.
>
> Airway en route climb gradients are less than 3.3% and are split into
> three
> values, depending upon altitude. The only reference to these gradients is
> in the TERPs section pertaining to airway design.
>